Anna Hazare reveals why Lokpal is a must to fight corruption in Indian Politics, and why the government is shying away from it. Chandran Iyer gives a snapshot of Anna Hazare’s mind after a prolonged interaction.
Since the existing bodies that deal with corruption either have no independence from the government or no teeth to put the independence to good use, the need for Lokpal has become all the more necessary.
This is because there is no truly autonomous or empowered body to deal with corruption cases involving the political class and the bureaucracy. The anti-corruption leader Anna Hazare is optimistic that once Lokpal comes into effect it will drastically bring down the level of corruption that is corroding the society and the political system.
Excerpts from an interview (on corruption in Indian politics):
Government seems to be in no mood to listen to the demands of the civil society. So what is your immediate plan of action?
I will try to deliberate with all the party leaders for working out a consensus on this issue. Since we believe in democratic principles, we will meet all the leaders and discuss the issue with them. This includes people like the senior BJP leader L K Advani, Congress president Mrs Sonia Gandhi and several others. On this matter, we intend to involve people cutting across the narrow confines of caste, creed, religion and party as this is a broad national issue.
How much have you achieved success in fighting against corruption?
We have been fighting against corruption since the last 20 years in Maharashtra. Our relentless fight against this menace has resulted in six cabinet minister being forced to relinquish their high offices, 400 officers have lost their jobs and it has resulted in the creation of a powerful Right to Information Act which has been a great tool to expose corruption. The expose of CWG scam and Adarsh Housing scam are the direct result of RTI Act. Many scams which are now coming out in the public glare are because of the effectiveness of RTI. But the RTI Act does not have teeth. It can only inform and expose what went wrong. It does not have the power to put the corrupt behind bars. This is the first step in the fight against corruption by exposing the perpetrators. The next step is to ensure that they get punished. This is possible through Lokpal because it will have the powers to send the corrupt persons to jail. That is why we have taken up the cudgels for the introduction of effective Lokpal Bill.
Are there any differences in corruption which exists in India and other countries?
Yes there are. Take the case of America. Corruption exists in that country also. But there is a tangible difference. The corruption that happens in America is confined to higher levels and poor people are not affected. But in India it is the reverse. Most of the victims of corruption in India are the poor and the downtrodden. Whether it is in kerosene distribution, public distribution system, connection for gas or trickling down of government scheme, they are the people who are affected. That is why we want Lokpal Bill so that it will bring all the government offices into its ambit and make them accountable. In our bill, we have made all government officials of all ranks accountable. We have also taken care to ensure that the appointment of the Lokpal is foolproof. But the government is reluctant to bring in our version for they fear decentralisation of power.
Do you feel that Lokpal Bill will bring an end to the corrupt practices in India or corruption in Indian politics?
It may not stamp out corruption altogether. But at least it will check 60%-65% of corruption happening in India, and even if that is accomplished it’d be a big deal.
Critics of Lokpal feel that one of the main drawbacks of this bill is that it goes against the spirit of Parliamentary democracy. What is your take?
The chief justice of America has once said the public welfare and interest is superior to Parliamentary democracy. The hole concept of Parliamentary democracy is for the welfare of the people and not for the elected people. Why are the people of India electing MLAs and MPs? It is mainly for two reasons. The first is to ensure that the public money which is in the government’s treasury is used for public good. The second is to pass laws which serve the interest of the country and the people. Why is it that the bill to pass Lokpal has been stalled since so long? When we are insisting on Lokpal bill, the MPs are dubbing us as “outsiders” because we are not elected members. This is strange because they are forgetting that it is we the people of India who have elected them to serve us. They are our servants and we the people are their masters. While enacting the laws in the interest of the people it is mandatory for them to take the views of the public. This is what Parliamentary democracy all about.
What according to you are the main causes of corruption in Indian politics?
One of the main causes is centralization of power. This is why even the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi was in favour of decentralization of powers.
But why does one need Lokpal? There are other institutions in India to tackle corruption like the CBI and vigilance committees?
How many ministers have been sent to jail by the Investigating agencies like CBI? Very few. This is because the CBI comes under the wings of the central government. If the central ministers are guilty of corruption then the CBI is forced to go soft on them. Same is the case with vigilance committees. When these institutions can be influenced by the government, how can they do their duties in an impartial way? In government department various senior officials are empowered to punish the corrupt officials. This includes the collector, commissioners and other high ranking officials. But how often they use their powers to dispense justice to the poor? Rarely. For instance, a citizen comes to know about corruption in Bharat Nirman Yojana. What he does is to go and complain to Block Development Officer. When the BDO refuses to listen to him he goes to the CEO and files his complaint. When he too refuses to listen to him the only alternative for him is to go to Mantralaya and file his complaint. Here too there is no guarantee that his grievances and complaints will be heard. So this is the plight of the common man and that is why we want a strong and effective Lokpal.
Congress leader Digvijay Singh has said that you would get the same treatment as Baba Ramdev got if you participate in hunger strike?
Those who make such statements do not know what our democary is. The right to launch agitation is constitutional right of the people which is there in our constitution. If people like him are saying that they will crush the agitations of Anna Hazare or Ramdev Baba who are voicing against corruption then it only tantamount to their open support of corruption. But anyway I am ready to face any government action. I am neither afraid of police lathis nor their bullets. I would prefer to die of a bullet while agitating for the cause of people rather than die of heart attack. If they don’t allow me to sit at Jantar Mantar or Rajghat, then I will continue the hunger strike in jail. I am ready to sacrifice my life for the country. I shall be proud to die a martyr’s death.
Are you ready to share dias with Baba Ramdev on issues of corruption?
The question of sharing the dais with Baba Ramdev does not arise because of the inherent differences between us. We have some basic points of contention and until they are resolved we can’t share the dais. If Ramdevji wishes to join my fast, then he would have to sit in the audience.
What are those differences?
It would not be proper on my part to reveal them till I have talked to him.
Does your reluctance to share the dias with Baba Ramdev stem from your perception that he is the face of RSS?
Not at all. I do not have any evidence that he is being sponsored by the RSS so how can I make any such inference. If you feel that he is being sponsored by the RSS then you should ask him. He is the right person to clarify.
Why do you want to bring judiciary into the ambit of Lokpal. Isn’t it going to create a clash with the judicial system and create more complications?
We do not want the Lokpal to have powers to punish the judicial officers. We would be overstepping our brief if we ask that. All that we are asking is that the in case of complaints, the Lokpal should have the powers only to conduct inquiry and then submit its report to the High court. What is wrong in that?
Critics also feel that bringing the Prime minister under the ambit of Lokpal will lower the dignity of the post of Prime Minister.
I don’t think so. The Prime Minister has himself said that he has no hesitation in bringing himself under Lokpal. People who are clean have no reason to worry about Lokpal. Only those whose hands are soiled have to worry about it.
Lokpal bill is necessary to bring corruption in Indian politics down.
